green power solar is

octave

Well-Known Member
Wow. Impressive stuff Octave.
I'd always believed that compressed air was too lossy to contemplate for energy storage.
That was my preconceived notion. What happened to that 2012 pilot plant?
Not sure about the Gaines Texas plant but I did discover a Canadian company called Hydrostor. They are building a demonstration plant at the decommissioned Angus Zinc mine near Adelaide.

Canadian long-duration bulk energy storage company enters Australian market
19 Jun 2018

Hydrostor, a Canadian company specialising in advanced compressed air energy storage (A-CAES), is establishing a new head office and demonstration power plant in Australia.

The demonstration power plant, which is in late-stage development, will be located at the decommissioned Terramin Angas Zinc Mine near Adelaide, South Australia. It will be Australia’s first A-CAES system and Hydrostor plans to have the facility in service by 2019.

The facility will use Hydrostor’s emissions-free A-CAES technology, have a power rating of 5MW and an energy storage capacity of 10MWh.

Canadian long-duration bulk energy storage company enters Australian market

This is how it works

 

nomadpete

Well-Known Member
Surprisingly , compressed air storage has managed to get their the electric to electric conversion efficiency up to around the 80% mark. Comparable to batteries and hydro pump storage. And a much lower capital cost to build. Looks very promising.
 

octave

Well-Known Member
Surprisingly , compressed air storage has managed to get their the electric to electric conversion efficiency up to around the 80% mark. Comparable to batteries and hydro pump storage. And a much lower capital cost to build. Looks very promising.
I read that a majors risk for this company is the declining cost and increasing performance of grid storage batteries. I imagine that the solution to grid level storage will not be a single technology but a range of solutions. What I find attractive about is the use of disused mines.
 

nomadpete

Well-Known Member
Risks not unlike the problem that Peugeot/Citroen hybrid air car. Apparently they made a safer cheaper hybrid that never needs battery replacement (no battery), with 106mpg fuel economy.
but the EU has decreed that internal combustion will end and they subsidise electric but not other technology.
So, not economically viable
 

Bruce

Well-Known Member
nomad, I always thought that compressed air was too inefficient because when you compress air, you heat it. And then it cools in storage and a lot of energy is lost. Compressing a really big volume to a low pressure minimizes the losses, but you need special caves and stuff to do this.
I'd really like to be wrong, and that 80% figure is impressive... how did that happen?
 

octave

Well-Known Member
nomad, I always thought that compressed air was too inefficient because when you compress air, you heat it. And then it cools in storage and a lot of energy is lost. Compressing a really big volume to a low pressure minimizes the losses, but you need special caves and stuff to do this.
I'd really like to be wrong, and that 80% figure is impressive... how did that happen?
The process is explained in the video. The heat is harvested by being efficiently stored and then added back to the air in the generation phase.
 
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nomadpete

Well-Known Member
Wasted energy in the form of heat has always been the problem. The large scale systems recover the heat during compression (charging the 'battery'), and reapply it during use of the compressed air. this 'reuses' the heat, so the energy is recovered. There are 2 large experimental systems at present. One in USA and one in Germany. Still not quite beating batteries cost wise, but it's early days and improvements are happening. There are plans to set one up at a wind farm somewhere.

Also people are toying with small scale systems (home size) but it's not economical unless it is integrated into the hot water heater, air conditioner, and fridge systems in order to use the otherwise wasted heat. Not likely to be practical for existing homes, but has possibilities for new homes.
 

nomadpete

Well-Known Member
The compressed air hybrid car used regenerative braking to compress the air, also used a small IC engine running at optimum to charge the cylinder. They didn't explain the heat issue but released the prototypes some years back and quoted 106 English mpg fuel economy.
 

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
Octave,
"At the moment the electrons that are powering my computer so that I can type this rubbish are being produced and used straight away. This is not the way we produce and consume other products, it is a "just in time"
EASY fix for that problem, Put large,ish battery under a foot-stool, connect to a U,P,S,
switch off the power, and type till you are tired, Recharge the battery when Off-peak.

Compressed air requires special container's that have a short life-span & require annual inspection, ask any SCUBA diver !.
spacesailor
 

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
But Why AIR, other gases are much cooler to compress, and when used, go cold.
Also Go Liquid.
Nitrogen as a liquid doesn't seem to need a compression cylinder, only a insulated thermal cask.
Doctor,s surgery to remove warts.
spacesailor
 

octave

Well-Known Member
Compressed air requires special container's that have a short life-span & require annual inspection, ask any SCUBA diver !.
spacesailor
Space you don't appear to have gone to my links. We are not talking little air tanks we are talking in some cases natural salt caverns. We already store natural gas in natural caverns

Natural gas storage - Wikipedia

The plants in Huntorf Germany uses a natural salt dome cavern and the plant in Alabama uses a mined salt cavern and have worked for many years.
 

octave

Well-Known Member
But Why AIR, other gases are much cooler to compress, and when used, go cold.
Also Go Liquid.
Nitrogen as a liquid doesn't seem to need a compression cylinder, only a insulated thermal cask.
Doctor,s surgery to remove warts.
spacesailor
Because all you need is a power source and a compressor. I think the process of producing liquid nitrogen is more complicated and requires more energy.

It is a valid question of course but my assumption would be that the already operating plants would for reasons of greater profitability use nitrogen if it were viable.
 

octave

Well-Known Member
But Why AIR, other gases are much cooler to compress, and when used, go cold.
Also Go Liquid.
Nitrogen as a liquid doesn't seem to need a compression cylinder, only a insulated thermal cask.
Doctor,s surgery to remove warts.
spacesailor
Actually, I see there is such a thing as liquid nitrogen for energy storage. It looks like its efficiency is similar to compressed air so perhaps it comes down to cost or perhaps the large scale required.

Cryogenic energy storage - Wikipedia
 

octave

Well-Known Member
This power storage facility in Manchester is not liquid nitrogen but liquid air. This demonstration plant opened in Jun 2018 and is connected to the grid.

When it comes to our energy systems progress is being made.
 

facthunter

Well-Known Member
Air is a" mixture" of gases Principally oxygen-Nitrogen and the rare gases Argon, Neon Krypton Xenon (and so on.) as my chem .teacher would say which condense at different temperatures and pressures so I don't GET what "liquid air" is. The vid was just about as devoid of information as you could possibly arrange and hope to get away with it. To avoid really high pressures you often make the storage very cold. The mist (smoke) was there . The mirrors must be somewhere around to complete the illusion.. Nev
 

octave

Well-Known Member
Air is a" mixture" of gases Principally oxygen-Nitrogen and the rare gases Argon, Neon Krypton Xenon (and so on.) as my chem .teacher would say which condense at different temperatures and pressures so I don't GET what "liquid air" is. The vid was just about as devoid of information as you could possibly arrange and hope to get away with it. To avoid really high pressures you often make the storage very cold. The mist (smoke) was there . The mirrors must be somewhere around to complete the illusion.. Nev
Nev the video I posted was a short introduction to the subject. I had not heard of cryogenic energy storage until it was mentioned here. At the moment I can only post from my phone so a bit hard to post links but there are plenty of links explaining the process and e a evaluating it's performance. Research is being done at Birmingham university.
 
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