green power solar is

Bruce

Well-Known Member
Irrigation can be done smart or stupid. Smart means controlling the saline water table somehow.
I think that in Australia we have the ability to do it smart, as long as the political will is there. Those ancient Babylonians didn't have the knowledge to do it smart.
 
kg yes my grandmother walked across the murrey river near barmah in her sunday best before my mother was born it was at a trickle
after the hume weir it has been hard to find a place were you could do that
oh by the way apparently the gov has found to their surprise a great number of persons that want to build a real power station as your solar and wind is not as good as expected gee that is a surprise to me I think not
it had to happened the crap that has been told about wind and solar being the cheapest is total crap take out the subsidies payed to agl and others it is the dearest
the vic gov is now losing 33 cents of royalties that was paid by the power companies neil
 

facthunter

Well-Known Member
The Murray is not the River in consideration. (The Darling is the one most threatened). I would suggest it as been better administered than the ones associated with the Darling.. Irrigators paid more than in other states, and they used to ridicule us for paying too much. .Nev
 

willedoo

Well-Known Member
Bruce, Chernobyl happened in 1986 and Fukushima in 2011. There have been another 9 serious accidents. If the world had been using nuclear power everywhere for the last 50 years it'd need something like 15,000 plants, there'd be a serious accident every month, and we'd have run out of mined uranium in about 5 years.
Why nuclear power will never supply the world's energy needs

On the other hand, if the world had started rolling out large-scale renewable plants 50 years ago, imagine how fast the innovations in wind, solar, hydro, batteries, and collection & storage in general would have occurred.
As to what would never have happened - Exxon Valdez, Deepwater Horizon, Gulf War to name a few.

But a few billionaires would not be billionaires if we'd gone that way.
Just as a point of interest, recently I was doing some reading on Chernobyl and decided to check it out on google maps. Street view is available at Pripyat, the abandoned nearby town. Not much to see though, as a lot of trees have grown in the streets blocking the view of a lot of buildings. I bet the google team would have been drawing straws for that job.
 

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
", if the world had started rolling out large-scale renewable plants"
I thought the world STARTED with renewable's, They called it the industrial revolution !.
NOT their fault that OAK tree took too long to grow. to cinder size and every other tree was inferior to the Massive oak. (for charcoal(aussie hard-wood is good))
To day, No government or anyone else for that matter Grows OAK tree's, Just the fast growing Cheap Pine. 30 years to chopping size then Maybe 50 before it rots, unless treated with nasty chemicals.
spacesailor
 

pmccarthy

Well-Known Member
The original Rio Tinto mine in Spain destroyed the forests for tens of miles all around, back in the 17th Century. Then the king of Spain decreed that no one could chop down a tree and they replanted. Trees all grew back big and strong, a beautiful forest. The a socialist government came to power, the king was overthrown, and the peasants destroyed the forest again in just a few years.
 

Yenn

Well-Known Member
Someone is chopping down pine trees as fast as they can go. I see dozens of triple trailers of logs going into Gladstone port, every day. Not sure where they are coming from but the tonnage is multi thousands. Funny thing we can see this all over the place and on an interstate trip lasy year i noticed the trucks going both North and South, in Vjc, I think it was. they are even doing the same in New Zealand.
Probably something to do with hancocks in Qld. they have a 99 year lease of what used to be Qld Forestry Service. Supposedly they will plant replacements in the felled areas, but i doubt they will be any more ecologicly responsible than the miners who are not making good the mes of open cut mining.
 

kgwilson

Active Member
The timber industry from planted Radiata Pine is huge in NZ. It started during the depression in the 1930s as a way to employ people planting trees. 30-40 years later and they were ready for harvest.This has continued ever since. A lot used to be exported as logs to Japan. Logs & Chips are still exported. Good straight ones now go into house framing timber. A lot is exported to Australia and most is treated to be borer & termite resistant. Ply is also made from it. The lesser quality is chipped and made into MDF & chipboard. My brother used to be Chief Engineer at Golden Edge, a huge MDF plant near Nelson at the top of the South Island. It is a fascinating process & MDF is a great product for all sorts of things.

When areas are harvested they are replanted within a year & the cycle continues. There was a news article recently in NZ that they were struggling to find people to plant trees as the reckoned $400.00 a day wasn't enough.
 

facthunter

Well-Known Member
Because it's all been sprayed with 1080 and IT kills everything. Good money's not much help if you end up with cancer a few years later. You get plenty of soil erosion too. Radiata pine rots and is not good in the open unless it's treated with Copper , Chrome and arsenic. compounds. and you aren't even supposed to come in contact with it afterwards ..Nev
 
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willedoo

Well-Known Member
Because it's all been sprayed with 1080 and IT kills everything. Good money's not much help if you end up with cancer a few years later. You get plenty of soil erosion too. Radiata pine rots and is not good in the open unless it's treated with Copper , Chrome and arsenic. compounds. and you aren't even supposed to come in contact with it afterwards ..Nev
Nev, wouldn't the tree planting workers be warned against picking up or touching 1080 baits? I've never heard of it being sprayed; I doubt it would be effective as it breaks down in the soil into non toxic compounds. Is it possible you're confusing 1080 poison with one of the herbicides.
 

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
They dropped LOTS of 1080 through-out the Forrest area to stop rodents eating the young plants, and for anything that moves, even had it dropped in our back garden, Which adjoined National Park, & over the road were there was not a single tree, Forestry land, denuded and not replanted.
When I lived in KiwiLand.
spacesailor
 

Litespeed

Well-Known Member
I find it very hard to believe they can't get tree planting done for $400 a day assuming its a wage and not expecting inhuman work rate and unreasonable hours.

Sounds more like a excuse the employers use hear in Australia to import labour on the cheap.

I would happily go to Nz to plant trees for that rate.
 

kgwilson

Active Member
Apparently the rate is based on the number of trees you plant, something like 1 a minute. Years ago I saw blokes planting pine trees & they had a back pack full of seedlings & a narrow spade. They made a cut in the ground with the spade, put a seedling in it, closed the cut with their boot & moved a couple of metres & did the same thing again. It took about 20-30 seconds each time. Not a lot of skill involved. They are seedlings about a foot high. See $400 a day to plant trees but no-one wants the job

As for 1080 there is a lot of controversy over that in NZ. It is mainly used to control possums imported to NZ from Australia in the 1800s for the fur trade. Unfortunately they found the lush bush to their liking and when the fur trade disappeared the population exploded. Possum fur is really soft and amazingly insulating. The current population is around 80 million. It is a national sport to try to run them over when they cross the road at night. In the last 150 years they have evolved much bigger than their Australian ancestors. 1080 is only dropped in pellet form & there is sometimes collateral damage when it is eaten by domestic animals. Overall though it has had a beneficial effect with denuded native forest returning to good growth & returning bird life. NZ possums have a particular liking for birds eggs & the rarer the species the better.
 

facthunter

Well-Known Member
1080 ends up in the carnivore food chain and wipes out eagles etc. Residual herbicides are used too to stop weeds. that compete. Glyphosate is supposed to be neutralized easily too according to the makers Monsanto but that is being questioned. and there are associated cancer risks coming to light. Bayer bought into it recently and it's been associated with bee population decline, and banned in some countries. Nev
 
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willedoo

Well-Known Member
1080 ends up in the carnivore food chain and wipes out eagles etc. Residual herbicides are used too to stop weeds. that compete. Glyphosate is supposed to be neutralized easily too according to the makers Monsanto but that is being questioned. and there are associated cancer risks coming to light. Bayer bought into it recently and it's been associated with bee population decline, and banned in some countries. Nev
Nev, I'm familiar with 1080; they bait for wild dogs regularly in my district, but use physically installed bait stations and not aerial dropping. I was just a bit confused when you said they sprayed it. Just a figure of speech, I guess.
 

facthunter

Well-Known Member
You're right. I meant dropped. It's usually pellets. dropped from the air in inaccessible country It has a bad name with Wedgetail Eagle decline. and domestic pets eating the dead birds etc
I doubt any of these poisons just dissipate and get neutralized in the soil. Insecticides are some of the worst things for the environment, and for you to be in contact with. and it ALL ends up somewhere. Nev
 

facthunter

Well-Known Member
Making charcoal from wood waste for inclusion in soil might also be encouraged. Our topsoil has little of it and it's extremely beneficial to soil productivity. Not burning stubble is a start for retention of biomass which is different from charcoal. Topsoil and water are two things we need to treasure here. Stop building houses on the BEST arable land. It's stupid. Nev
 
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