Hospital wait times

octave

Well-Known Member
#21
"they don't meet the required standards" Australian standards were passed !.
"we recruit them from overseas already trained " Like Dr death.! ( and his ilk)
"they are TRAINED overseas" And do not show their Credentials on the wall like Aussie Dr's did. ( when we had an Australian Doctor, ( in the 80's))
spacesailor

Do you really believe what you are saying? Just for clarity you actually think that overseas trained doctors do not have to pass any exams? If I don't know something I research it or talk to someone one has experience in that field.

Medical Board of Australia - International medical graduates (IMGs)
 

Bruce

Well-Known Member
#22
The anglo students would have found it easier once they got in, it was the getting in that was harder for them.
It was done on academic points say out of 100. Now the cutoff was at say 97 points. But if you were of non-english background, you got 3 bonus points.
This was the case in South Australia at about 1990, and I was a no-account member of some committee that had to do with recruiting students, but we had no say in the number of medical places because the federal government had the say. We could have filled a thousand places with straight "A" students but were limited to about 60.
Lots of things have changed since my day though, so I bet this has.
Here in Western Victoria, the local doctors consist of an Indian woman and a devoutly moslem Pakistani man. It was unkindly said of the Pakistani that he would not examine women's genitals because of his religion, but when my daughter-in-law asked him about this, he vehemently denied it and I believe him.
 

Bruce

Well-Known Member
#23
Octave, it is my understanding that British qualifications for medicos are accepted in Australia without any more exams.
The pathway was from India and Pakistan through London to Australia.
 

octave

Well-Known Member
#24
Octave, it is my understanding that British qualifications for medicos are accepted in Australia without any more exams.
The pathway was from India and Pakistan through London to Australia.
I am quite comfortable seeing a doctor who has been registered in Britain, we have similar systems. In Britain, all doctors have to go through a process called revalidation (much like a BFR). I can't see any evidence of a policy (at least at Sydney Uni). It does have to be remembered that the ATAR is not the sole admission criteria. One could have an ATAR 99.95 (the highest admitted in 2018) and be a total cold hearted unfeeling person and therefore not suited.

I am interested in facts rather than hearsay. I have no comment to make on the admissions practice in Adelaide in 1990 as I can find no solid information either way. But the notion that "anglos" (not sure what this means English? White?) are excluded from studying medicine is demonstrably false. https://medicaldeans.org.au/md/2018/12/2018_Student_Statistics_Report.pdf

"Student Statistics Report: 2017 – 2018 SNAPSHOT OF FINDINGS Australia In 2018 3,822 students commenced studying medicine at an Australian medical school; 31 fewer than in 2017 (a 0.01% decrease). Medical student numbers are expected to remain stable in the coming years, with predictions that commencements for 2019 will be down slightly at 3,799. There were 40 fewer domestic commencing students in 2018. They comprise 83% of the cohort, of which 9.5% are full fee paying (up from 7.6% in 2017, 7.4% in 2016 and 7.2% in 2015). The proportion of international students grew slightly to 17% from 16.7% in 2017. The number of Commonwealth supported places (CSPs) dropped by just under 100, primarily within the non-bonded places. 26.5% of domestic medical students are in a bonded scheme (to work in areas of workforce shortage) which is up slightly from 25.1% last year. The gender balance remains slightly in favour of females for all entry schemes, at 53% of commencing medical students, marginally higher than 2017’s 51.9%. 3,475 medical students graduated from Australian medical schools in 2017, of which 87% were domestic graduates. The number of international graduates (45) was the lowest since this report started in 2010. 25.2% of 2017 Australian graduates were in bonded schemes. Australia is predicted to graduate approximately 3,609 students in 2018"

For those who feel there are too many foreign doctors the answer does not lie within admission criteria but is more due to the fact that us taxpayers want to get the cheap4est deal we can. We would rather cut spending on universities and import doctors and nurses whose education has been paid for by the taxpayers of another country.

SO No work for Whities, in their chosen profession.
JUST Take a look at WHO is in the medical profession, or any hospital. Over 90% are NOT Anglo-Saxon, or even Australia.
My medical clinic, has No A-S doctors.
Space you observation that 90% of hospital staff are not anglo saxon does not ring true to me. I have spent a lot of time hanging around hospitals lately as my 91 father has had many health issues with operations and 2 falls this year. Yes, there are people from many cultures (which I see as a plus) but 90% is a bit of an exaggeration. The last time he was in hospital his doctor was a Japanese woman in her 50s, she was fantastic.

Space can you define foreigner for me? You keep using the term Anglo Saxon which makes me think you mean white. If my incredibly smart and dedicated music student does end up in medicine would you classify her as a foreign doctor? She does have black hair and Asian eyes and darker skin but also has an Australian accent and was born here. My point is that you cannot walk into a hospital and visually count the "foreigners" unless you perhaps class an Australian born Chinese person as a foreigner
 

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
#25
"(not sure what this means English? White?)"
How about," AUSTRALIAN " without a foreign accent, so with my impaired hearing, I don't have to ask for an INTERPRETER.
English people can't be classed as prejudiced as the original people no longer exist.
So being born there (England), and married to a person from another country, with children of different race's, I'm a mixed up "New Australian", having difficulties with" Trades-persons" doing my medicals, that I can't understand.
Most "Anglo's" are white. Including Scandinavians, Russians & most of Europe. ( not just poms ) .
You can give too much assistance to immigrants ( those three points to get them a degree), that dispossess the native people.
spacesailor
 

octave

Well-Known Member
#26
"(not sure what this means English? White?)"
How about," AUSTRALIAN " without a foreign accent, so with my impaired hearing, I don't have to ask for an INTERPRETER.
English people can't be classed as prejudiced as the original people no longer exist.
So being born there (England), and married to a person from another country, with children of different race's, I'm a mixed up "New Australian", having difficulties with" Trades-persons" doing my medicals, that I can't understand.
Most "Anglo's" are white. Including Scandinavians, Russians & most of Europe. ( not just poms ) .
You can give too much assistance to immigrants ( those three points to get them a degree), that dispossess the native people.
spacesailor

"having difficulties with" Trades-persons" doing my medicals" So are you suggesting that doctors who are not "Anglo Saxon" are not competent. If so why don't exercise a little bit of autonomy and look for a doctor that you feel is competent?

Even if the 3% thing was true we are talking about the top few percent of people academically speaking who are accepted. The entrance requirements are the easy bit. My son's friend (lets call him dr Al) used to write a fantastic blog while he was med school and during his residency, it was very enlightening and quite humorous. But the upshot is some people who start who and may be academically impressive still don't end up making the grade.

If you really believe that "foreign doctors" do not reach the level of competence that non-foreign doctors reach why on earth don't you make the effort to find a doctor you trust. I have a heart defect and when this was discovered I was referred to a specialist. My doctor suggested some names of specialist, I asked which ones had the most experience and the best reputation. I did not make a decision based on ethnicity. I do appreciate that you may have trouble understanding a Chinese or Scottish doctor with a strong accent then perhaps that particular doctor may not be right for you. I have sometimes changed doctors, not because of accent but from attitude, I don't like being talked down to.

The stereotype is usually that Asian people tend to be high achievers when it comes to academic pursuits. I certainly find that they tend to place more importance on progress and achievement than locals.
 

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
#27
I use the nearest medical clinic, & normally have to have the reception, to repeat, their words more slowly,
Except one Indian Dr who has a very nice but very quiet voice, No troubles there but she is a Dr, not a receptionist.
I also have a grand-daughter (adult) with a Tiny voice, I tell her "My hearing aid is in it's box, Please shout a little", & my wife alway's tells me to stop shouting as everyone can hear me, everywhere.LoL
spacesailor
 

octave

Well-Known Member
#28
I use the nearest medical clinic, & normally have to have the reception, to repeat, their words more slowly,
Except one Indian Dr who has a very nice but very quiet voice, No troubles there but she is a Dr, not a receptionist.
I also have a grand-daughter (adult) with a Tiny voice, I tell her "My hearing aid is in it's box, Please shout a little", & my wife alway's tells me to stop shouting as everyone can hear me, everywhere.LoL
spacesailor

lol, should I post in CAPITAL LETTERS? I am the stage where my hearing is still not bad but it does get a little more difficult in a crowded place.
 

Bruce

Well-Known Member
#29
There was no "exclusion" of white Australians at all. There was an "adjustment" to the raw scores if you were of " non-english-speaking background" as I have explained.
It was this, combined with the very high scores needed, which had the ( unintended ?) effect of excluding most whites.
There was another thing... you could take 2 years to do year 12 ( without penalty on your scores ) and this option was taken up by people from hard societies ( refugees ) much more than by locals. So the first year medical class was filled with pudgy asians who had studied 16 hours a day and done no sport and did only 3 subjects a year. Plus a few Greek males.
And yes, they realised that this was making the wrong people into doctors. They only wanted the million dollar incomes.
As regards " foreign " doctors, I ask you to consider the Bundaberg Dr Death. gosh I'm glad he didn't kill all the Jabiru lot. I wonder where he is now.
But as I said, this was only during a small window in time.
In my day, I could have done medicine if I wanted to. The only person in my class who wanted to was a very religious kid who wanted to heal like Jesus. Personally, I indicated I wanted to be an airline pilot, much to the horror of my teachers who thought this was a very downmarket trade.
 

octave

Well-Known Member
#30
There was no "exclusion" of white Australians at all. There was an "adjustment" to the raw scores if you were of " non-english-speaking background" as I have explained.
Do you mean ATAR required to apply or UMAT or GAMSAT tests? Of course, this may be very different from the past.

Anyway whatever happened in the past is not a point that we need to wonder about as the figures are recorded. We know that in 2018 3822 students commenced a medical degree. 3171 were domestic students and 651 were international students. The term foreign is problematic. Does it refer to how you look or where you were born? As you say white students are not excluded.

Yes, of course, there was Dr death as well as the occasional locally trained doctors who slip through the system although ultimately detected by other staff in the hospital. Just like pilot training and certification for airlines, it works 99.9% of the time. There is no other country I would rather live in terms of medical care.

Just getting back to the original post

Many of the waiting patients could be fixed by nurses, or lesser qualified doctors, but this may expose the hospital to litigation.
Having had a few trips to ER in the last 5 years some for myself and some for my old dad (91 next week) the usual procedure seems to be an assessment by the triage nurse and after a perhaps considerable wait assessment and perhaps treatment by a resident or a registrar. A few years ago I thought I might be having a heart attack. The triage nurse checked my vitals and thought that I probably wasn't (she was right) I was then seen by a young resident who liaised on the phone with the cardiology department, I was monitored for an hour had a blood test and was sent on my way (with some mylanta) It is hard to see how this could have been done any more efficiently.

I am all for the idea of more being done by paraprofessionals such as nurses but I am not sure it would necessarily be the total solution. Nurses are already extremely busy therefore I think we would need more of them. If we want them to do more complex procedures we would need to train them and of course, they would need to be paid at a better rate. Not saying it is a bad idea but sitting outside any system looking in it is easy to think that the solution is cheap and easy but most systems or more complicated than they initially look
 

Old Koreelah

Well-Known Member
#31
... I have sometimes changed doctors, not because of accent but from attitude...
One factor on which I tend to judge a medico is by the reading matter in their waiting room, which is presumably magazines the doctor or his staff subscribe to. National Geos, Australian Geos, science magazines, etc. tell me they are interested in the world and have an open mind. Magazines from aid agencies tell me a bit about their priorities.
The worst was a Sydney specialist whose waiting room only had luxury car brochures and magazines on how to avoid tax. His bedside manner was also appalling so I wasted a long trip.
 

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
#32
My clinic has NONE.
Not even kids (Child's) , use to have them when first opened but probably don't read (Australian literature) books.

spacesailor
 

red750

Well-Known Member
#34
We've been attending our local medical clinic since the late 70's. There were originally 3 doctors on staff, all Australians, in their senior years, and now probably in that great operating theatre in the sky. These days there are a few permanents, four of whom are Australian, with a number of Asian doctors who seem to come and go, rotating through another clinic in the group. My own GP for the last few years is of Greek parents, but was educated at Melbourne University. He is second in charge and quite popular.Make an appointment to see him, and you can sit in the waiting room for half an hour or more. Other doctors see you more quickly.

My Australian cardiologist retires at the end of this month. He is handing over his practice to an Indian cardiologist with whom he has worked and has great confidence in. The new man commenced training in New Zealand, and graduated at Melbourne Uni.

Hospital waiting is where the problems exist, if you use the public system. Trying to get into the sleep study clinic at 3 local hospitals has a waiting list of around 5 months. I went to Box Hill (public) Hospital for a chest x-ray when my wife suspected I had bronchitis, and the waiting time at triage was around five hours. We have top private health cover which is expensive, but we can go to local private hospitals with hardly any waiting time. Knox Private has an emergency department, but you have to pay up to $200 to get through the door, which is not claimable.
 

old man emu

Well-Known Member
#35
My doctor at a practice I have been attending for 20 years is Australian born but of Middle Eastern heritage. I only go to get prescriptions renewed for tablets I was put on for depression and anxiety 12 years ago, or to have him fill out my annual heavy vehicle driver's medical.

The depression and anxiety was work related. I've been out of that work for 12 years, so I don't have any of the same stress factors anymore. The original doctor who diagnosed stress and put me on the tablets is not an administrator of the practice and won't see me to change the diagnosis. The doctor I see says that since he did not do the diagnosis, he could not change it, but could refer me to a Head Reader who could - at a big price. That means no CASA licence, and hassles from the driver licensing mob.

The last time I went to see him, I wanted to renew my wife's prescriptions for tablets he put her on ages ago. I happened to ask him his advice on getting my heart's blood vessels checked before I started with exercise to lose the weight he told me to lose. He charged me the full practice price ($15 over the Medicare rebate amount) to write a referral to a cardiologist for a stress test AND bulk billed my wife for the scripts. As I sat in his room, I could see the construction site of the practice's "Day Surgery" building next door. The most annoying thing about seeing his is that the first thing he does when you walk in is to start filling in the payment chit that you give to the front office to pay for the visit.

Visit !!!! you don't even get offered a cuppa and biscuit.
 

Old Koreelah

Well-Known Member
#36
How frustrating, OME. A highly-recommended shrink diagnosed me with severe work-related depression. I reported this to my boss (the major cause of that illness) who then increased the pressure on me, until she had me removed. Seventeen carefully-worded letters and a couple of years of campaigning failed to get my job back, let alone any redress. Sociopaths know how to manipulate the system.

Meanwhile, the psychiatrist got lots of my money, but achieved nothing. He kept focussing on one manifestation of the depression, which presumably he found interesting. He ignored my efforts to explain the causal factors, as if that didn't matter to him.
I eventually realised he was probably more unbalanced than me.
 

red750

Well-Known Member
#37
Slight thread drift. The cardiologist I referred to above, who is retiring this month, gave me a prescription for thyroid tablets at my recent check-up, the last time I will see him. The tablets come in a box of 200. My dosage is half a tablet per day, that's 400 days. Original plus 5 repeats means 2400 days, or six and a half years in one prescription! And the tablets? About the size of a grain of rice, and not long grain, either.
 

Bruce

Well-Known Member
#38
I went to see one of the pudgy asians who was young enough to be a product of the system I am complaining about. It was for an area of my thigh that had less than normal sensation. I wanted MS etc to be checked out.
Well this GP said ( sitting at his desk ) that he didn't know what it was next patient please. I bet he was on a million a year from govt rebates alone, so quickly did he dispose of patients.
Yes, I should have put in a complaint. At the next place, I was checked over very competently.
Octave, that's a good point about other countries... I wonder where the best one is, and it might even be here. That story would be the worst service I have ever had, and yes he was the less than 1% who slip through.

OME, I have socially known 3 psychiatrists and they were all crazy. The least crazy one was struck off for sex with an underage patient, the other went so far off the rails that he locked his doors and refused any communications. The third one was such a bad father that his kids left home and cut him off.
I reckon it must be a feature of the job, maybe insanity is more communicable than we think.
 

pmccarthy

Well-Known Member
#39
Slight thread drift. The cardiologist I referred to above, who is retiring this month, gave me a prescription for thyroid tablets at my recent check-up, the last time I will see him. The tablets come in a box of 200. My dosage is half a tablet per day, that's 400 days. Original plus 5 repeats means 2400 days, or six and a half years in one prescription! And the tablets? About the size of a grain of rice, and not long grain, either.
That’s great news for your prognosis Red. We can expect to have you around for a while yet.
 

Methusala

Active Member
#40
We have 2 gp's, one from Africa and the other from the Sub-continent. They are both very thorough competent. Please be respectful of all people. Afghans, Chinese, Europeans, all have added culture and commitment to our adopted continent.
 
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