Hospital wait times

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
#41
Methusala
I agree,They do Add to our overall community wealth.
BUT
Some don't try to speak our way, At home they speak their own language, even to their children, And wonder why the kids don't fit in. (my neighbor, Even had their "None English speaking parents here for a couple of months).
Fine, I don't have to engage with them, "DO I"?.
spacesailor
 

Bruce

Well-Known Member
#42
space, you do need to think of yourself in the reverse situation, like suppose you and your family had moved to china. Would you really speak chinese at home?
But I am interested in finding out how those doctors from overseas got qualified in Australia.
 

Bruce

Well-Known Member
#43
On differences between the races...
Very hard to separate out culture from genetics, but there are clues. How many Chinese do you see in the final of the 100m sprint?
Surely that's not all down to culture, but as soon as you mention genetics, you open the possibility of other differences which are not so readily apparent.

You are racist when you don't give a person a fair go based on their race. Not when you are being scientific.
There was a school for gifted kids in Menlo Park. They wanted the mix of kids to reflect the catchment suburbs. They had to adjust the entrance test scores thus : subtract 6 points if you looked Chinese, no change if you looked white, add 20 points if you looked African.
Now this says nothing about individuals, the top kid could well have been African. Look at Obama for a high achiever...
 

Bruce

Well-Known Member
#47
Yep space, this mate of mine ( who looks Chinese on account of being of Japanese genes, but still 5 generations in the US) had a kid and he looked into trying her out for that school.
I really don't think I'm a racist, but I do have some baggage in my head from growing up in Alice Springs in the 1950's.
For example, I tend to unconsciously stay upwind of black people. This is unreasonable these days where I live. I have not struck one around here who smells bad, but imagine an adult who has never washed or wiped their bum in their whole life. Well that is what I grew up with. Not their fault, how could desert aborigines possibly have washing in their culture?
 

Methusala

Active Member
#48
We are here in Vietnam staying with a family. Their 13 year old son is constantly studying (like 12 or more hrs per day for 6 days a week). His parents have both graduated from university. Vietnam is an Asian tiger economy growing at over 7pc/year. This is similar to Singapore, China, India and Japan. His parents have a realistic view that education is the way to success. I'm afraid that I don't see this attitude too much in Australia. I'm sure that many of you have similar stories. Indians succeed in all adopted countries. They don't do it by having opportunity thrown at them.
 

old man emu

Well-Known Member
#49
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

These Asian and Oriental kids come out of universities with few practical skills other than those which might be associated with their field of study. Even then they most often only hold theoretical knowledge.

For rapidly advancing fields, especially anything related to computer science, universities and other tertiary institutions are a couple of years behind what is happening currently. Remember, before a university can include anything new into a course, the "new thing" has to be understood by the course-giver. Then lecture content has to be prepared, and then time for lectures on the topic have to be inserted in the course program. This can take a couple of years. Knowledge turn-over times in computer science are measured in week and months, so those who are able to apply it don't go to universities. They research the Internet and implement the "new thing" very quickly. To employ a surfing term, they stay just ahead of the break.
 

octave

Well-Known Member
#50
These Asian and Oriental kids come out of universities with few practical skills other than those which might be associated with their field of study. Even then they most often only hold theoretical knowledge.
This is not my experience. I have quite a few Asian music students at the moment and have had many in the past. The typical Asian student I teach tends to be a high achiever in many areas. At the moment my student C is in year 9 at a selective school, he plays in the school orchestra and bad (which have quite high standards) as well as studying for his Grade 5 music exam. He has parental expectations to excel in all areas. Another student 15 T is an Asian girl who his pretty good at 2 instruments and goes to a selective school. Thankfully her although her parents expect high standards academically and in sports they have made it clear that her music is purely for relaxation. This means we get to have great fun playing jazz duets during her lesson. When I get a new student I can't afford to make any assumptions about them, this would be 9intellectually lazy and so often would prove to be incorrect.

I do resist the tendency to ascribe characteristics to various groups. The fact that Hong Kong has the highest average IQ (108) and Australia has the 9th highest (98) https://brainstats.com/average-iq-by-country.html tells you nothing about the next Australian or Hong Kong resident you meet. The education and family circumstances of the individual. If stereotypes have any validity then it would be interesting to ponder what are the stereotypes of an Australian and how useful are they in predicting what the next Australian you meet will be like.
 

old man emu

Well-Known Member
#51
Playing a musical instrument involves a lot of motor skills. It is a practical skill. I agree that passing musical theory exams involves a lot of intellectual input, but how good are these kids at decomposing the construction of a musical piece? Apart from the creation of some new instruments, what radical revision of the physics of sound creation have changed in the past few centuries?
 

octave

Well-Known Member
#52
but how good are these kids at decomposing the construction of a musical piece?
Theory and analysis is part of the exam system as in this piece you have just played, what key is it in, what is its structure, what period was it composed in and what characteristics relate to the period in which it was composed, and lots more. Some of my students also learn composition (but not from me) One of my Asian students plays jazz and enjoys improvising which is really composing in real time.

Apart from the creation of some new instruments, what radical revision of the physics of sound creation have changed in the past few centuries?
I am not sure I understand the question.

Stereotypes are simply not useful. If a new student walks through my door their ethnicity tells me nothing useful. Even if there are differences you don't know where on the scale a particular person is.

If you measure someone's performance in a particular area such as intelligence, maths ability piloting ability creativeness etc you would get a bell curve. Let's say that red people are better at mathematics than blue people. These bell curves overlap unless the difference is enormous. This tells me that the smartest mathematician in the world is slightly more likely to be a red person than a blue person. It also tells me that if I met a red or blue person they are much more likely to fall within the overlap.
Bell curve v1 B.PNG

I reject stereotypes. The fact that I am a white ageing Australian male may tell others a little about what I "might" be like but I do not fit the stereotype that other countries may have about the average Australian. The stereotype does not really perform a useful function.
 

pmccarthy

Well-Known Member
#53
This actually says that of the top 50 mathematicians in the world (or physicists or whatever), a large majority are going to be red people. It is a big, big effect at the end of the tail.
 

octave

Well-Known Member
#54
This actually says that of the top 50 mathematicians in the world (or physicists or whatever), a large majority are going to be red people. It is a big, big effect at the end of the tail.
It does not provide a good prediction of what a random red or blue will be. If we overlay the average Australian IQ over the average Hong Kong IQ you would get something like the bell curves I posted. Whatever this means at the tail choosing a candidate from Hong Kong instead of one from Australia does not make the odds much greater of getting the best candidate or whatever.
 

old man emu

Well-Known Member
#57
When I said, "what radical revision of the physics of sound creation have changed in the past few centuries?" I was saying that the physics of harmonics has always been the same. I have no doubt that your students are very competent in producing pleasing harmonics from their instruments, but the basics of sound production using tools is basically no different today than it was when Gronk hit two sticks together in a rhythmic pattern.

Your students are simply becoming skilled in a mechanical task. They aren't taking the physics of harmonics into untried areas.
 

octave

Well-Known Member
#58
Your students are simply becoming skilled in a mechanical task. They aren't taking the physics of harmonics into untried areas.
Can you give an example a musician who is "taking the physics of harmonics into untried areas"

. Many of my students are improvising which involves understanding the chord structure and then composing a melody on the fly. This melody has to do more than just not sound wrong it has to lead somewhere, it has to be original. When learning a written piece of music the student may be able to play the correct rhythm and correct notes it then has to be interpreted. The piece needs to be phrased. In my area (woodwind) notes are not automatically in tune but you have to listen an adjust each note as you go (intonation). I could on (and on). In the classical music field, there are probably hundreds of different recordings of let's say the Beethoven symphonies. If we were talking about purely about a mechanical skill there would be no point in anyone else recording, we would just have the definitive one version. I would have thought that you would credit your favourite musicians with more than just being able to sing the correct pitch and place their fingers in the correct place on the fretboard. In terms of a music degree, you have to have the mechanical skills before you are admitted, during the course, you learn how to actually be musical. There is a high failure rate.

Anyway, my point was more general and related to

These Asian and Oriental kids come out of universities with few practical skills other than those which might be associated with their field of study. Even then they most often only hold theoretical knowledge.
How do you know this is true?

I am saying that this is not my experience and is merely a stereotype not born out by my students or indeed fellow teachers many of whom are Asian. I did use to work with a Russian music teacher who used to say that Australian students are lazy and anti-intellectual but this is just another dumb stereotype. Even if there were some truth to this stereotype so what? It is meaningless. People tend to believe stereotypes about others but reject those about themselves.

There are many stereotypes around, what are the characteristics of a policeman, a cardinal an older person a scoutmaster?

I agree with this guy


And you consider my rant you may like to relax with the Dvorak Cello Concerto performed by Yo Yo Ma and the Kyoto symphony orchestra, not a bad performance (for asians) :smile:

 

nomadpete

Well-Known Member
#59
OME's generalisation about Asian kids being more likely to posess grest theoretical skills but lack practical application skills does (to me) make a point.

My observation is that highly academic folk tend to lack practical applied logic (generally, of course). For instance, I know a couple of uni grads , engineers and doctors, who can't be trusted to start a lawn mower or assemble an IKEA kit without making silly mistakes.
But the generalisation is not a ethnic one, so much. Its a result of spending most of their waking time studying instead of learning by trial and error. The school of hard knocks tends to teach practical stuff. The school of universities tend to teach theory.

That's my generalisation.
 
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octave

Well-Known Member
#60
OME's generalisation about Asian kids being more likely to posess grest theoretical skills but lack practical application skills does (to me) make a point.

My observation is that highly academic folk tend to lack practical applied logic (generally, of course). For instance, I know a couple of uni grads and doctors, who can't be trusted to start a lawn mower or assemble an IKEA kit without making silly mistakes.
But the generalisation is not a ethnic one, so much. Its a result of spending most of their waking time studying instead of learning by trial and error. The school of hard knocks tends to teach practical stuff. The school of universities tend to teach theory.

That's my generalisation.


Is it important for a doctor to be able to start a lawnmower and assemble Ikea furniture? I imagine the average doctor would say "why the hell would I want to mow my own lawn when I can pay someone to do it" seems fair to me.

The variations within a group are greater than the variations between groups. I have had many Asian students who are not particularly academically gifted. I recall an Asian student complaining to me that it was annoying that people assumed they were academically gifted.when they were actually pretty ordinary.

We tend to look at other groups and assign characteristics whilst there may be tendencies perhaps due to cultural differences these differences are usually small and not that significant.

Most people fall into many contradictory groups.

How can I be categorized?

I am a musician - what stereotype can be applied.
I spent 12 years as a musician in the military - this comes with a stereotype
I owner built a house, am I a builder type?
Home educated my son - what type of person does that make me?
Born in England - what does this say about me?
I was an immigrant - what type of person does this make me?
I consider myself Australian - does this mean I am obsessed with sport?
Grew up in the suburbs.
Lived on a large rural property
Live I in an apartment
Am I a South Australian a New South Welshman a Victorian.
I am a recreational pilot.

I am all of these things. All of these groups have different stereotypes.

I am not saying there are not tendencies, for example, immigrants may be more economically and academically ambitious. I work a couple of days a week at a studio in Footscray which has a large ethnic population. The Asian population in this area by and large fall lower down the socioeconomic scale, they are mostly not accountants and doctors. The usual stereotype tells me nothing about what these people are like.

The fact that someone who has just spent many years doing a medical degree and may not have learned skills outside of this area applies across the board regardless of ethnicity. By the way, a lot of a medical degree is done in hospitals with real patients and is practical.

If t Asians tend to be nerdy but not well rounded perhaps this is an advantage if I an employer is looking to employ accountants. They perhaps are not required to deal with customers but must be fantastic at the numbers. Perhaps they could eliminate all the resumes that do not have an Asian name on them.

Some questions I would love an answer to are:

If we accept that different groups have particular characteristics, how do we use this information?

What stereotypes can we apply to Australian men?
 
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